Another "Hoagies and Stoagies" event was held in
This time Jacob Moya Debated Jonathan Goundry on the subject of "Federal Vision and the Covenant of Works”
Monday, July 07, 2008
Hoagies & Stogies: Federal Vision (Covenant of Works)
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2 comments:
Jonathan,
Excellent job on the debate. It sounds like you really did your homework. Thanks for taking the time.
Jacob made a few fallacies/errors:
a.) Etymological: he confused the word 'gift' (i.e. grace) with 'give'. They are not always synonymous. So, his quote from the Carmen Christi proves no one’s position.
b.) Straw-Man: the view of pure-justice does not exclude faith. Even Luther stated that obedience done to the last 6 commandments is worthless unless it is done in reference to the first 4. Faith was indeed an obligation of Adam, but that does not mean that the covenant was 'gracious' in the FV sense.
c.) Selective Quoting: Calvin would not have agreed with the FV (see d. below). Jacob is only citing one part of Calvin, a section from Calvin that the orthodox party can agree with (see b. above).
d.) Using Romanist Arguments: Jacob used the same interpretation of 'works of Law' as Rome used in response to the Reformers: works not done with faith. However, such an interpretation will not work as the examples of Abraham and especially David in Romans 4 make clear.
e.) Straw-Man 2: No one denies (except for classic dispensationalists) that works are necessary and that if someone continues in sin that they will go to hell. However, he is thinking (like the Romanist) in terms of a false dichotomy: either anti-nomianism or covenantal nomism. Calvin's doctrine of perseverance is neither of those two.
f.) Romanist Belief 2: “Adam would not have been able to fulfill that of his own ability.” This is the Roman Catholic belief that nature is suspended in grace, something that the Reformers explicitly denied in favor of the belief that grace restores nature.
g.) Romanist Belief 3: He interprets the Galatians passage “faith working by love” in the same way Romanists do. John Piper dealt with this argument in an appendix in his book on the New Perspective.
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